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The modern news consumer ignores Weblogs and online citizen journalism at his own peril. But not everyone has the time to keep track of what's going on the Web. With this blog we hope to track the highlights of what's being discussed online so when news breaks from the Web, we're ready.

Will Femia is a Weblog enthusiast who, through good fortune and dumb luck, was introduced to the form as his position as chat producer for MSNBC.com careered into obsolescence. On any given day, Will can be found having already spent an unhealthy amount of time squinting at a computer screen.

Send a message to Will at spotter@msnbc.com



The tragedy at Virginia Tech

Posted: Monday, April 16, 2007 2:44 PM by Will Femia

Updated 4/17 3:10:

If you've been looking through MSNBC.com's coverage of the massacre at Virginia Tech you may have seen the link asking you to share your story if you were there.  I happen to have access to the tool that gathers submissions through that page so I can share a bit of what we're seeing come in.  Submissions fall into three classes, jokes/hoaxes/off topic, admonitions for being media vultures, and genuine first hand accounts of being on campus during the shooting.  Ignoring the pranksters, the conflict between the two other groups is interesting.  I understand the perspective of the people who resent the media for making such a blunt pitch to those most affected by this tragedy, and if I wasn't seeing the sincere submissions of people who experienced the event directly (or peripherally) I'd be inclined to agree.  But some people have a need to share their experiences.  I won't go so far as to speculate it's a universal human compulsion, but I recognize it in myself, so it's familiar when I see it in others. The need to share experiences is the same thing that makes some people tear articles out of the newspaper for others to read.  It's what makes people submit photos to sharing services like Flickr.  It's what makes bloggers report audiences of questionable quantity, and it's the spirit that drives much of the participation in the amalgam of social sites and online forums I see in today's volunteer online journalism.

When the Virginia Tech shooting story was breaking I was tinkering with Twitter tools to see if I could watch the story unfold there.  Results on that effort were mixed, but elsewhere it was observed that Newsvine beat Digg in getting the story out to users.  From the Newsvine link I clicked through to this string of reports from on campus.

Speaking of looking at social networks, there are many Facebook tribute groups that have formed, but this one appears to be the most active. 

This Livejournal writer's girlfriend was shot in the hand. This one has fewer details, but it's interesting to see a reporter from the Boston Herald trying to make use of the Web as a resource.

Via Riehl World View I read about rumors that this all started with a jilted lover and scrolled through the school's sports message board. (It's funny to find myself scrolling through an old fashioned message board when I began the day playing with the new and trendy Twitter.)

I'll be interested to see what the school paper has once they work out their server issues. They've got what appears to be a camera phone picture of what it looks like to be in "lock down."  It looks like a lot of the video on TV is from camera phones but I haven't seen this photo.  Speaking of camera phone footage, You may have seen this clip on TV but if there was a TV anchor talking over it you missed the point.  Listen close to hear the gun shots.

Naturally when there's a high profile shooting, thoughts turn to the issue of gun control.  Depending on your view either the tragedy wouldn't have happened if there were no guns or it wouldn't have happened if there were more guns.  For some reason I ended up clicking more pro-gun links.  This year-old story seemed to come up often. It describes how a pro-gun bill was defeated last year, making the campus a gun-free zone.

I got this research paper (Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws: Contrasting Private and Public Law Enforcement) from Glenn.

I hope this blogger has heard from his son by now and simply hasn't posted an update yet.  I can't imagine the agony of having to wait this long.

This site is aggregating Virginia bloggers. Speaking of the local perspective, The Roanoke Times coverage is impressive to scroll through even if it's not very media rich.  That style of updating a story with times is becoming iconic of emergency news; a visual siren.

For the map heads, here is a big map of the campus.

I'll add more as I find them.  Let me know if you come upon anything compelling (that isn't already in the mainstream).

UPDATE: The Virginia Tech radio station crashed my machine a couple times when I tried to play their stream.  Understandably they're struggling with the traffic so that one's going to need a little patience.

UPDATE 2: The Web is burgeoning with fake MySpace pages and profile and hoax photos and "not him" pictures of Asian guys with guns. Rather than get in serious trouble associating someone with a horrible crime they had nothing to do with I'm going to follow the mainstream on shooter material - at least until the Web settles down a bit.

Something I don't understand is why they keep saying, "I can't believe it would happen here of all places" if this had already happened last summer: "William Morva, accused of killing a police officer and a security guard, is captured after a day-and-a-half manhunt that prompts the shutdown and evacuation of Virginia Tech. A hectic day unfolds in a series of updates below."

Speaking of past incidents at the school, here's the coverage of the recent bomb threat.

Here's how Wikipedia is covering the story.

It's interesting that we're calling this the worst gun rampage in U.S. history.  There were more deaths in the Bath School Disaster but that was an explosion.

The VA Tech shooting Flickr pool

Planet Blacksburg is another school paper I think.  Veeery slow to load.

Why they couldn't just tackle him while he was reloading.

This student blogged compellingly from his dorm room yesterday. Today he's got a list, not unlike ours, of the dead reported so far. I'll post again shortly as I come upon their personal pages.

UPDATE 3: Virginia Killer's Violent Writings (It's Cho's play.)

See the update at the bottom of this entry for an interesting look at a message board posting from a gun shop ower who think he sold Cho the guns.  The message board itself is crashed but I'll check back later to see if comes back.

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Comments

Thanks for the range of links Will. I'm an alum of Virginia Tech, and I've been appalled at the contention that there was some sort of security measure the university could have had in place to prevent this. There are roaming campus police as well as emergency call boxes on campus, and there is an escort service at night. But we're talking about a large, PUBLIC institution here. A public institution cannot, by definition, close its walls, and there isn't a school anywhere that can guarantee the safety of its students. Whether or not mistakes were made today remains to be seen, but the jumping on the school and the finger pointing done by some members of both the media and the public needs to stop. I would warn people on the cell phone footage: hearing those gunshots is jarring, unnerving. The footage doesn't show much, but it's pretty disturbing to hear.

LV (Sent Monday, April 16, 2007 7:18 PM)

Been watching the news reports all afternoon and one thing has caught my attention. Not once has anyone mentioned if there were security cameras located near the dorms or at various area's of the campus.... In this day and age, I would be shocked if there wasn't.

E. Taylor (Sent Monday, April 16, 2007 7:51 PM)

I'm watching the briefing on tv now....I'm amazed at the stupid questions being asked....the chief has been so patient...I don't know how he's keeping his cool.....

Pam, Sptbg, SC (Sent Monday, April 16, 2007 8:00 PM)

just wanted to say that I agree with your thought that some people do need to tell their stories, and the news is there to inform everyone of the information, but I was very unhappy with a comercial for a coverage airing tonight, that made the whole event sound like it was a movie or tv show, an action/horror flick. totally sounded irreverent, and uncaring, dramatized the situation, etc. very inappropriate for the situation, especially on the day of.

Janice Dowen, Somewhere, Midwest (Sent Monday, April 16, 2007 8:32 PM)

Just because there could have been a law for students/faculty to carry guns, It takes more than just carrying one to actually use it in a situation like that. Most who carry guns legally have not been trained to actually use it with deadly force.

Tom Stright (Sent Monday, April 16, 2007 8:35 PM)

It should be noted that VA Tech is no stranger to horror and tragedy. In the early '90's, a freshman, named Andi Walnes, was raped and murdered near the campus, and the murderer has never been apprehended. Being a friend of the Walnes family, I find this shocking and shameful, and I truly grieve for both them and the families of today's victims. I hope VA Tech and Blacksburg bring some closure to everyone from the events of the early 90's and today.

Tony Mazzoccoli, Alexandria, VA (Sent Monday, April 16, 2007 8:38 PM)

I find it in very bad taste that you people are going to broadcast from the Virgina Tech Campus. This is a tragedy, and to sensationalize the Carnage, for rating purposes should be a crime. I have watched your Today show for almost 20 years, and I have seen a lot of broadcasts that has gotten me irrate, But this last broadcast of the police officers carring the blood covered body out. Hopefully his parents didn't reconize him, How would you feel if that was your son or brother whose bloody body was being broadcast across America and the World, And you have not yet been notified officialy, But it seems that all you care about are the ratings. You people are heartless, and uncaring and Cruel and totally discusting.

Lester Welch Sulphur LA. (Sent Monday, April 16, 2007 9:02 PM)

Today I sat drinking my coffee and my jaw dropped. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Another school shooting, my heart raced!I am outraged what is wrong with our society? Our shools are suppose to be safe, a place to learn not to fear.My prayers our with everyone. My heart goes out to all the mothers as a mom this is one of my worst fears. God bless you all

Erin Arellanes Grants pass, Or (Sent Monday, April 16, 2007 9:19 PM)

enough arm the teachers, put a stop to this

john doe (Sent Monday, April 16, 2007 9:31 PM)

32 unarmed people gunned down and the gun banners want to disarm more people that could have reduced the death toll. Just recently in Utah a guy was stopped after killing 8 people by a concealed carry permit holder. The shooter was far more prepared and used a much more deadly weapon but was stopped in his tracks by a responsible citizen. Those that think it is the job of others to defend them reap what they sew.

Dell Schanze, SLC, UTAH (Sent Monday, April 16, 2007 9:51 PM)

As usual, the media and law enforcement completely miss the point regarding the VA Tech incident today. There were three tragedies. The first was with the gunman and killing the students at 7:15 am. The second was with the Law Enforcement and their ineptness in dealing with the first incident and not properly securing the area. The third was allowing it to happen because of law enforcement bumbling. Why is the media completely ignoring how law enforcement did not secure the area with a known killer still at large? Why is the media ignoring law enforcement inept effort to send email notices while the second shooting was taking place?!!! Again, as usual, we will focus on all of the wrong issues. We will focus on why the gunman did it. We will focus on gun control. We will focus on violence displayed in movies. The simple, hard truth is that a small number of people will, from time to time, do very dangerous things. Yes, what the gunman did was unspeakable yet what law enforcement did to secure the area is not being spoken about. The real tragedy is how the media is missing the point of focusing why Campus Police Chief Flinchum botched his sole function of securing the campus. There is no excuse for his lack of sound judgement and even less for the media not focusing on the real story. Of course, we will learn nothing from this, as usual.

Al Garcia Traverse City, MI 49696 (Sent Monday, April 16, 2007 10:14 PM)

My heart goes out to all families devastated from this senseless act. This tragedy has touched many around the world. However, some of the media reports that seem to rip the campus decisions need to listen carefully and truly have all the facts. Trying to lay blame when so many are hurting is not helping. I work at VT and I hate seeing our university painted so negatively. It's bad enough that we have the tragedy to deal with, without all the speculation. Please give our law enforcement (campus, local and state) time to get all the facts.

Hokie Secretary (Sent Monday, April 16, 2007 11:49 PM)

I dont think the gun law story here is that the criminal, who was not interested in obeying the law in the first place, was able to get guns. I think the focus should be that the law abiding citizens who tragically died were restricted by the law to the point the could not carry a gun and defend themselves and needlessly lost their livesas victims. As one of our founding fathers said, "A gun in the hands of a righteous man is only a danger to the wicked." How true that is today. Criminals dont obey gun laws because they dont care about the law. The anti gun laws only restrict the citizens from protecting themselves and therefore creates needless victims. I wish we lived in a world where guns were not needed, but unfortunately that is not the case. Gangsters and criminals and those who prey upon the innocent will always find the tools of their trade. The citizens of this fine country should no longer indulge these assinine gun laws. Events like today's and those of september 11, and the rodney king riots, and the aftermath of hurricane katrina make it ever clear that we in the law enforcement community have been handicapped by a lack of manpower and the weak stomach of society (Not allowing us to do our job because of how it looks on camera). We cannot protect the individual in the event of mass casualty/caos. It is up to the citizen to take up the spirit of the minute man and say no more to those who prey on the innocent. Stand up and say no to those who would harm you and yours. Arm yourselves in the war against evil and fight the good fight. Tell your senators and congress people and governors you've had enough and end the assinine guns laws that victimise your families

john law , torrance, ca (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:27 AM)

Blacksburg is the closest place I have to a home town because I moved around so often growing up. My grandfather taught and retired from the engineering department. I grew up going to the Duck Pond and cheering for the Hokies. I knew I always wanted to attend VA Tech and lived in West AJ my freshman year. I became an RA and watched the planes hit the twin towers from my dorm on campus. Today I felt like all of those feelings coming back. I hate seeing those beautiful and familiar buildings, sidewalks, and even the name of my school (for the record it's Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University or VA Tech, not Virgina Tech University) associated with such a horrible headline. I'm thinking of all of my fellow Hokies who feel so deeply sad for our school. Everyone who is touched by this school is now a Hokie, I'll be wearing my Orange and Maroon on Tuesday and you should too.

Corin Ludwig - Madison, WI (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:42 AM)

This is an extreme tragedy and my prayers go out to everyone involved. Arming college professors and students is most definitely NOT the solution. Anyone care to speculate on where you would find a more emotionally unstable populace than our college campuses? What's the freshman suicide rate in America. How about the alchohol and drug problems? It's tough enough making it through class without wondering if the guy/girl sitting next to you is packing and fed up with life. Imagine for a moment what would have happened today when the Swat Teams arrived and a few hundred armed students came pouring out of the door looking for the bad guy. More guns might have changed the body count, but it wouldn't have prevented the tragedy.

Mark Twyman, Las Vegas (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:03 AM)

I was shocked by the event!! I am Chinese students in Kunming,Yunnan.I saw many this kind events in US,I guess the gun in US is abused.The campus is a place no-violent,learning,safing,I can't imagine this happen in my arround.God bless the deaths and families that suffered.

Michael Young,kunming,China (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 4:39 AM)

I really think all children should take courses in middle school for anger management. In 6th grade my daughter was chosen to be a mediator. The way this violent world is, and in our communities, it should be mandatory for all middle schoolers to take some type of course to discuss how to deal, in our society, with date rape, violence, drugs, also boyfriends who beat up thier girlfriends.Everything that deals with anger, and how to manage that.

Kathy, Maryland (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:01 AM)

I just heard on the news a lady being interviewed. She asked if there was something that could be done to limit the number of bullets in a pistol. From that statement, I can clearly tell she knows nothing about semi-automatic pistols, such as Glocks. And, I could tell the profiler didn't think before answering her. It is true that the law expired controlling the number of rounds, but because of the way the Glock is reloaded, it would have done no good at all. When the weapon is empty, the breach locks open. Punching a button under the thumb lets the empty clip fall out. Then, the shooter inserts another clip and hits another button, which closes the breach on the new cartridge, and he begins firing again. The process takes less than half a second. It is VERY doubtful that someone could react quickly enough to realize the weapon is empty and leap at the shooter. The ease of reloading the Glock is one reason most of our law enforcement officials carry one, including treasury department officers.

Thomas L Fee, Gravois Mills, Missouri (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:05 AM)

I taught for 47 years, 32 of them at the university level. In that time I experienced one student being murdered. The shock on the campus was unbelieveable. But this episode, this massacre, this exercise in lunacy must make the VT students absolutely numb. Yes, we can offer our prayers, our condolences and whatever support we can. It is the least a caring country can do. But we do need to reflect. Saint-Exupery wrote "Death is sweet when it comes in its time and in its place, when it is in the nature of things." This episode was totally unnatural. These students had their lives taken from them. I hope all of our citizens will reflect more than react. We may find some rational explanation to all of this but, for me, no explanation will replace the hurt, the anger (which will subside) and the profound feeling of the total waste of it all. If I could say anything to the students at VT, it would be only to tell them, you have to carry on. You have to try and live with the thoughts of an episode that is beyond explanation. And you know, you can do it. I hope and pray that the scars that are now inflicted will soon heal as they must. And for those of us who only watched, we too probably are suffering a little scaring. May we also heal.

J. O'Connor, Las Cruces, New Mexico (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:08 AM)

Regarding the blooger with the son in college, his son attends the University of Virginia, not Virginia Tech.

Kristi Clark, Indiana (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:44 AM)

I think that this nightmare could have been either avoided or at least been mitigated a bit if our kids had some basic survival training at some point in their education. Gym class should cover stuff like how to get low to an adversary, out of line of sight and take him out from behind. They shouldn't just panic and run. This sort of killing spree will not stop, so we need to edcuate our young ones on how to properly deal with this sort of situation, a self-defense 101 for all students. If the shooter gets rushed by 3 or 4 students, he (or she) couldn't possibly take them all out so a really major tradegy gets reduced. There are schools overseas that are teaching kids how to blow themselves up for the most damage and I feel we need to teach our kids how to defend themselves.

Rick (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:05 AM)

Once again in this country people want to place blame. Many, many people using their mouths instead of their ears. Remember the victims, learn the lessons, make changes, move on. No more blame.

Dennis Perea, Las vegas, NV (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:08 AM)

A simple, relatively inexpensive warning system. Install inside and outside on every building, on every campus, fire dept and police dept in US a warning siren system Only activated for dire emergencies with procedures in place for immediate lockdown until an all clear siren. Everyone would know to take immediate cover.

georgia gough, melbourne, fl (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:17 AM)

The Winds of Change blogger has clarified that his/her son goes to UVA, not Tech. That's a different school about 3 hours away and presumably his son wouldn't be in a classroom at Tech on a Monday morning. It's not impossible but it's highly unlikely. He/She probably hasn't heard from the son because the son didn't think his parents would be alarmed for him.

Beth McCallah, Charlottesville, Virginia (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:27 PM)

How can a person from a different country come to the united states and buy firearms?, and worse yet how can he get them within a week?, here in california, you have a 30 day wait! But to let a person from a different country come and buy a weapon so quickly is inviting terrrorism,how could anyone sell to foriegn nationals how stupid is that?

Dale,mountain view ,california (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:58 PM)

While the tragedy at VT is unbelievably horiffic, it is not, a has been reported, the worst school massacre in U.S. history. 45 lives were lost at the Bath School disaster, in 1927. The Bath School disaster is the name given to not one (as the name implies) but three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, USA, on May 18, 1927, which killed 45 people and injured 58. Most of the victims were children in second to sixth grades attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest act of mass murder in a school in U.S. history. The perpetrator was school board member Andrew Kehoe, who was upset by a property tax that had been levied to fund the construction of the school building. He blamed the additional tax for financial hardships which led to foreclosure proceedings against his farm. These events apparently provoked Kehoe to plan his attack. On the morning of May 18, Kehoe first killed his wife and then set his farm buildings on fire. As fire fighters arrived at the farm, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many of the people inside. Kehoe used a detonator to ignite dynamite and hundreds of pounds of pyrotol which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months. As rescuers started gathering at the school, Kehoe drove up, stopped, and detonated a bomb inside his shrapnel-filled vehicle, killing himself and the school superintendent, and killing and injuring several others. During the rescue efforts, searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol planted throughout the basement of the school's south wing.

Ken Stein, Reading PA (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 1:12 PM)

In Gonzalez v. the Town of Castle Rock, the US Supreme Court ruled that police have no duty to any individual citizen, but serve only communities as wholes (the case is easily found on the USSC web site). The case involved a woman, Mrs. Gonzalez, who had a court's order of protection against her ex-husband. This man called Mrs. Gonzalez's home and expressed his intention of murdering Mrs. Gonzalez and their 4 children. Mrs. Gonzalez called the Castle Rock police, informed them of the threat and begged for police protection. The police declined -- that's right, declined -- to respond. Mr. Gonzalez was almost as good as his word: he failed to kill Mrs. Gonzalez, but succeeded in murdering his 4 children. Mrs. Gonzalez sued the town, and the case made it to the US Supreme Court which, in finding that Mrs. Gonzalez did not have a property right in the order of protection, explained the finding as I wrote above: the police have no duty to any individual citizen, but only to society as a whole. If you believe you have the right to live, if you believe that you have the right to protection from those who do you or others harm, the US Supreme Court has made it clear that you cannot depend upon your police to defend those rights -- you must defend them, yourself, or foresake them. Ownership of, and competence in the use of firearms is the ONLY defense any US citizen has of his life, the life of others or of his property.

Enoch Wisner (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:08 PM)

Photo on Flickr of killer: www.flickr.com/photos/eldarossell/203788467/

Sebastian Tombs, San Diego, CA (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:29 PM)

The media coverage is appalling. The 24 hour news has been so focussed on such world-shaking events as Anna Nicole Smith, Don Imus, and the Duke Lacrosse players, that to see them in action on this story reduces it to entertainment. The reality is that this would be a good day in Bagdhad. Our news is so out of whack with what is important in the world. And enough with the guns already. Wouldn't it have been amazing if George Bush had taken this opportunity to declare a war on guns, like his stand at ground zero against the terrorists? Instead the first thing out of his office was a statement supporting guns.

Brian, Seattle WA (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:46 PM)

His parents, his family? Where are they and what are they saying about this? About him?

Sinkinship (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 6:37 PM)

It's very chilling how he chained the doors from the inside, it's exactly the method used in the book "we need to talk about kevin". This was what disturbed me the most out of anything about the story, the fact that the poor kids were trapped and knew their fate

haimish, gillingham, england (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:42 PM)

I too am very disturbed by the 24 hour news coverage of this tragedy. It seems to have become somewhat of a media circus with broadcasters from every major network either parked out on the campus lawn in chairs asking survivors "And how did that make you feel?" or standing around trying to stir up discontent during interviews by asking questions like "And how do you believe you could have been better protected on the campus?" It's like they are probing to find the most horrible of anything they can to report to exploit the entire situation, and it is all to get ratings. How do you think these poor people feel?? I appreciate the detailed backgrounds with the pictures of who these people were that lost their lives in this horrific event, that makes us viewers feel closer to the victims and their families. We have them all in our thoughts and prayers. The rest of these broadcasts were only really news the first or second time around. Please give it a break and show us some real news or quit wasting our time.

SuzyQ , Greenup,KY (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:57 PM)

I know one of the victims personally. She was an amazing person. Not like the people that everyone says "oh, she was amazing!" but everyone really knows it's just lip service. She was truly awesome. As far as your stream crashing, I would say that WUVT isn't quite properly equipped to handle such heavy traffic. People I've spoken with are amazed (and amused) that it was able to serve as many people as it did.

Jess H. (Sent Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:11 PM)

I really don't care what the NBC people have to say nor anyone else. I would like to see the full video's with out NBC voices interupting. Then I believe I can make up my own mind about this sad man. If I am not intelegent enough to understand then I will get help from professionals not reports putting their own spin on what happened and why.

Chatalaine, Atascadero, CA (Sent Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:39 AM)

<<I got this research paper (Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws: Contrasting Private and Public Law Enforcement) from Glenn.>>

OK, I understand it's much too late; I ran onto this while looking for a place to comment on the more recent CT murders, the doctor's family.  I appreciate the link.  I've read other work by Lott, but haven't seen this one; I've heard that his conclusion is that this type of crime is more strongly deterred than some more ordinary crimes, by concealed carry, but haven't heard that he had any idea why.  I've assumed that robbers need to keep working because it's their profession, they need the money for the necessities of life (pot, coke, heroin, etc, I suppose) while someone like the VA Tech murderer can choose to just go on with life and leave the rest of us alone.  As to how we can deter a murderer who intends to kill himself, maybe the key is that he planned to be remembered, to be more famous in death than in life.  He probably would not want to be remembered as such a klutz that he could screw up a suicide mission, a worse loser in death than in life.  

As for the usual comments that if any of the professors would have had a gun, someone might have got hurt, that is so wild that it hardly deserves rebuttal.  Just imagine looking over the scene of the crime, with dead and wounded people and blood all over the place, and seriously thinking that if one more person would have started shooting, things would have turned out worse.  No reasonable person will claim that having a few of us ordinary people allowed to carry guns (or, all of us, as in "Vermont-style" concealed carry, no permit required, and very little crime there)will keep everyone safe, all the time, but it helps.  

Dick Hatzenbuhler, Deering, NH (Sent Saturday, August 11, 2007 11:58 PM)



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